February 3rd, 2024
Author: Simon Schaffer
Perfectly, let me reveal Ken’s masterful research project concerning bloodlines out-of Llewelyn Fawr and you can Joanna
Only ‘Ellen’s’ label remains a puzzle, around is apparently no-one to called Ellen or Helen, but possibly a keen ‘Eleanor’ into Joanna’s top (Eleanor of Aquitaine, mommy from Joanna’s dad King John)
Hey, men and women. It’s it is interesting; everything i won’t keeps provided to have access to this post twenty-5 years ago whenever i is actually evaluating and writing Right here Getting Dragons!
An important reason for this exercise is to test, by a glance at genealogist’s feedback on the subject and also by asking some identified original provide, to determine who was mom regarding Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Is actually she Joanna, spouse of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Produced circa.1188, passed away. March 1237) or try she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch away from Rhos, mistress regarding Llywelyn, created circa. 1168, passed away??
I’ll follow this which have a holiday research with the it is possible to life regarding an effective ded Susanna, given over to King Henry 111 while the a great hostage during the 1228 along with her child custody being supplied to Sir Nicholas Verdun with his partner Clementia.
The new opinions of the Genealogists that i enjoys learnt are just that, opinions, and so they disagree greatly. Zero special evidence is available either way, but have to say that the majority hold for Gwladus are new child out-of Joanna. This is particularly true of your own genealogists of your descendants off the brand new De- Braose household members, even so they ily getting associated with the Welsh and you can English regal houses!
The list following out-of Llywelyn’s numerous genuine and you may illegitimate students appears is essentially accepted by the all of the genealogists which i have examined apart from variations more if or not # 9 very stayed. New times from birth down the page are disputed by particular:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, born circa.1199, died 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, produced circa.1206, passed away 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1206? died circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1208? died circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince off Wales, created circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about it big date, pick after) match app, died twenty five February 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1209 died 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1210, died 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – created circa 1210, you are able to dual so you can Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, produced circa 1214? Died 1259?
There can be much dispute along the identity of your parents from these types of children. Discover standard arrangement that the merely particular children regarding Llywelyn’s e Prince away from Wales and you can Ellen (Helen) who partnered (1) John brand new Scot, son of the earl regarding Chester and (2) Robert de Quincy. Even though advice was separated over the parents regarding Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you can Susanna, all the genealogists I’ve examined slim on their mother are Joanna.
It is partially with their going times regarding beginning since the well as his or her marriages to several marcher lords whom, one to supposes, might have desired to align their homes to that of their neighbor, the Prince out of Northern Wales and his awesome wife, the latest queen off England’s daughter. It’s believed that this type of lords of your February won’t have obtained such desire or governmental determination during the marrying of the sons towards the illegitimate daughters of a good Welsh prince which have a Welsh lady.
To what names of these youngsters, whether of the Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise anyone else, they were every named once members of Llywelyn’s family members:
Ken, we have been entirely in your debt
Llywelyn’s mother try titled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ out of Gwynedd. Their paternal granny was called ‘Gwladus’. The mother and father of their grandma Susanna, have been ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you can ‘Angharad’ from Flint and you may one another its brands were given in order to Llywelyn’s youngsters. That it Susanna and had a sibling named ‘Gwenllian’, a similar term because Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.
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